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 JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?

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Date d'inscription : 17/05/2007

MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Mer 10 Fév - 4:37

for example, when they say good master and JESUS tells them don't call me good, only ABBA is good - is that person right to call JESUS good, must we listen to the word of that person ? no - when people say JESUS Son of david: are they right, o king of the jews - no - because the Bible seems to explain that JESUS ain't Son of david, and GOD do YOU say JESUS is king of the jews - and JESUS do YOU say YOU're king of the jews: no - so please people who worship JESUS as being the Father whom HE ain't, stop using < < humans == words, as 'arguments ( false arguments) to justify your belief of JESUS is FATHER SON _ because we can not trust men' word, whether they are against JESUS & against our ABBA, whether they're CHRIST's disciples or prophets or apostles - because , they knew certain stuff, but there was also tones of stuff they did not know - like can we ask to JESUS where we want to sit in Heaven , no - according to the apostles yes, according to JESUS no - are we going to listen to men or to CHRIST

for instance, people thought people in our ABBA's Kingdom marry - JESUS says that no they don't, they're like the angels : are we going to believe simple people, or CHIST JESUS the Son of GOD? too many examples, showing if you want to prove anything, for example, that CHRIST JESUS is SON & Father, you need to use only JESUS & GOD's word , and rarely, me's word - for GOD & CHRIST= always right , infinitely wise - men = something wrong, other times right, wise, some yes, others not that wise < but we can use men’s words as arguments in the Holy Bible, when and only when those men are right
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Mar 21 Juin - 13:13

JESUS YOU never put Yourself 1st : YOU put GOD first: as another person : not as being YOU: this means YOU definitely don't desire for the people to believe YOU are GOD & to worship YOU : YOU come & speak as a messenger of someone else: of GOD : YOU don't come in Your own Name: how could GOD come as a messenger of someone else : how could GOD the Father come in somebody else's name : how could GDO the Father desire for the light to be in someone else greater than HE is :  JESUS: GOD is greater than Me: GOD is saying GOD is greater than HE is : ????? !!!! not possible! GOD knows HE's greater than everyone in the universe: greater than He's perfect Son JESUS : there are way too many verses showing how JESUS is so not our Creator and so not His ABBA , in the entire New Testament : please make a list of them : write them all down: then read them

all & you'll know the truth! If GOD came, HE ‘d definitely speak in His own Name: for HE is greater than all : nobody is more than Him so that HE ‘d have to speak as an inferior being to a GOD: because then if GOD ‘JESUS’ says GOD is greater than Him than there is another GOD greater than GOD: then several GODs certain inferior to others: ! nonsense! It says in the Bible GOD called humans ye are GODs : and GOD called JESUS GOD : HE says i believe if i remember : YOU are GOD : and i don’t know! test every spirit! and evil people have added or transformed things! But I always wonder about this passages, because, it’s so strange : ho w could an apostle say JESUS is GOD, at the very beginning of john : and ho w could GOD call humans & JESUS GOD : even if JESUS was GOD, why would GOD call somebody else GOD : HE would have said I am JESUS I am GOD: but not ME GOD speaking to YOU JESUS : YOU are GOD : if only

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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Mar 21 Juin - 13:13

GOD and JESUS would both answer us if we’d asked them !!!!! it’s so frustrating to not know! Again GOD hasn’t called plenty of times His Holy SON GOD, but just once: in the rest of the Bible HE just says things such as this is my @@ Son @@ listen to Him : and not He is my Son and is GDO and is Myself : or This is my HOLY SPON and I’m well pleased with Him : or I don’t remember what : why don’t you try to meet born again Christians living next to you, who worship GOD the Father and not JESUS the Son, and ask them ho w they could become born again if they believe in a so called ‘lie’, which is obviously the truth: there are strange stuff , that we don’t know really who put these stuff there in the Bible : like plenty of times it says GOD is our only Savior in the Old Testament : then in the Ne w Testament, it says plenty of times CHRIST JESUS s our only Savior : ????? 2 Saviors?? But the evil people want to deceive

and confuse us : it’s because of verses like these, that the people think JESUS is the Father !!! !also the verse JESUS is in the Father and the Father I JESUS: very confusing : but our lovely JESUS said something like the Father is greater or mightier than I am : this says it all : if you believe in ME, you don’t believe in ME, but in the Father that sent ME: meaning ME JESUS am not that important, and don’t want the light on ME, but on My beloved Father who sent ME: for JESUS did not want the people to only put their eyes love ect on Him : but also on GOD : because HE knows HE’s sent by GOD, and not GOD Himself/ HE works for GOD, H’s a child of GOD, not GOD: so it is full of meaning that JESUS said this: JESUS is a child of GOD, just like any born again is : JESUS, I believe, said something like : GOD loves you as much as HE loves me : wow! very significant! Meaning again JESUS can’t be GOD Himself: for GOD can’t love Himself the same HE loved His kids, can HE?

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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Mar 21 Juin - 13:14

JESUS is GOD?

i believe that JESUS is the Son of GOD: philipe would have told him, yes but HE's also the Father GOD : but no, philipe didn't correct the eunuque becuse the eunque is right: JESUS is Son : JESUS is not Father GOD

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/worshipped.htm

http://www.towertotruth.net/shouldchris.htm

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2007/03-17b.htm

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christ

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-Christians-worship-Jesus-instead-of-God-the-Father

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/28242/why-do-christians-pray-to-jesus-instead-of-to-god-the-father-directly-and-isnt

https://www.quora.com/Do-Christians-worship-God-or-Jesus-the-son-of-God

http://thebiblicalworld.blogspot.fr/2010/09/should-christians-worship-jesus.html

https://convergenism.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/to-worship-god-or-jesus/
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Dim 31 Juil - 13:53

reasons why Jesus is not God

1- Jesus is not all knowing:          

Mark 24: 32-36:

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

God is all-knowing, Jesus fails this main qualification. This alone is enough to prove that Jesus is not God. note the verse says ONLY the Father meaning nobody else, including the divine Jesus.

2- Jesus never said I am God.

Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the Old Testament where God says he is God:

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.

Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Dim 31 Juil - 14:38

Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence.
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Dim 31 Juil - 14:41

Jesus is the son of man :

The New Testament makes it very clear that Jesus is the son of man:

Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Luk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.

Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

1-     Jesus is the son of GOD
2-     Jesus is not God

Jesus was GIVEN power and authority, he did not own it.

God is all-powerful and is independent, he needs no help from anybody. However so this is not the case with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help from God, unlike God, Jesus does not own any power or any authority, rather it is given to him from God.

Jhn 13:3  Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

So as we can see, Jesus was GIVEN everything he had . This all included miracle, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracle. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Dim 31 Juil - 14:43

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

Jhn 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 8:26  I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Jhn 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God. I challenge any Christian to bring me one single miracle Jesus performed on his own, just one. The Christian will never be able to meet this challenge.

5- Jesus was I sent I to mankind

It is very strange that when we read the Bible, we find that Jesus was sent to preach to mankind. One would expect to find Jesus coming by Himself to all of mankind if he was God, rather what we find is that Jesus just like all the other prophets, was sent :

Mat 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So as we see, Jesus was sent for the lost sheep . This was His main duty . Jesus’ real mission as we see was for humanity ; this verse can not be refuted. GOD gives missions to His Son , commands . nobody can give missions to GOD. so, CHRIST is not His Father GOD. The verse is very clear, Jesus is SENT for the lost sheep .

Jesus denied being good in the sense that God is good.

If Jesus is God one would expect him to admit he is good in the sense that God is good, meaning perfect. However when we read the Bible we see that Jesus denies being good in the sense that God is good which is perfect. Here are the passages:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Dim 31 Juil - 14:45

the man calls Jesus good, Jesus tells the man there is non good but God. Obviously Jesus referred to God as someone else, which proves Jesus isn’t God. However the main importance of the passages is that Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect.

Hebrews 5:1-8: 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

Jesus cried to the one who could save him from death . this means Jesus could not save himself from death . How can Jesus be God when he cannot save Himself ? This shows that Jesus is not in control of life and death, God however is in control of everything, including life and death :

And they have taken besides Him gods, who do not create anything while they are themselves created, and they control not for themselves any harm or profit, and they control not death nor life, nor raising (the dead) to life. S. 25:3

7- Jesus’ believers did NOT believe he was God neither

One of the greatest Christian myths is that Jesus’ followers believed he was God. However so, this is not true, the Bible says otherwise :

Matthew Chapter 16

13-14

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets

So as we can see, the believers out of the population did not take Jesus as God, they took him for a great man, such as John the Baptist, or Elias, or some others. None of them said he is God. Now let us read on and see what his own disciples took him for :

15-20

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus asks his disciples about what they take him to be for, they respond by saying he is the SON OF GOD I Jesus agrees with them and tells them tell no man I am the Christ. Jesus’ disciples do not say you are God I Jesus himself does not say he is God.

both the son of God and the term Christ do not mean God . The term Christ means Messiah I the definition of Messiah is not God I the Jews who were awaiting their Messiah did not believe the Messiah would be God :

The predominant Jewish understanding of moshiach ("the messiah") is based on the writings of Maimonides, (the Rambam). His views on the messiah are discussed in his Mishneh Torah, his 14 volume compendium of Jewish law, in the section Hilkhot Melakhim Umilchamoteihem, chapter 11. Maimonides writes :
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Dim 31 Juil - 14:46

"The anointed King ("HaMelekh HaMoshiach") is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and our Rabbi Moses. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc." (Deuteronomy 30:3-5).

"These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala'am, too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David, who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers 24:17-18): "I see him but not now" - this is David; "I behold him but not near" - this is the Anointed King. "A star has shot forth from Jacob" - this is David; "And a brand will rise up from Israel" - this is the Anointed King. "And he will smash the edges of Moab" - This is David, as it states: "...And he struck Moab and measured them by rope" (II Samuel 8:2); "And he will uproot all Children of Seth" - this is the Anointed King, of whom it is stated: "And his reign shall be from sea to sea" (Zechariah 9:10). "And Edom shall be possessed" - this is David, thus: "And Edom became David's as slaves etc." (II Samuel 8:6); "And Se'ir shall be possessed by its enemy" - this is the Anointed King, thus: "And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord's" (Obadiah 1:21)."

"And if a king shall stand up from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will coerce all Israel to follow it and to strengthen its weak points, and will fight Hashem's wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded {and won all nations surrounding him. Old prints and mss.} and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the strayed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder" (Zephaniah 3:9)."

In Judaism, who is the Messiah?

The messiah is a God fearing, pious Jew, who is both a great Torah scholar and a great leader as well. He is a direct descendent of King David, and will be anointed as the new Jewish King. the Hebrew word for messiah - "Moshiach" - means "anointed one." When the messiah comes, there will be a universal recognition of the truth of Torah and of God Who gave that Torah at Mount Sinai. All Jews will return to the Land of Israel, where they will throw off the yoke of their enemies and undergo a complete spiritual revival. They will embrace the faith of their forefathers and dedicate themselves to G-d's service forever. They will re-build the Holy Temple, from where the Divine presence will shine forth, spreading the light of truth, justice, tolerance and peace throughout the world.

The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5) He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god .

Will you worship Jesus, or the one Jesus worshiped : GOD ?

One glaring problem the Christians have is that Jesus prayed, and had a God himself. This logically lets us conclude that Jesus cannot be God. The logical thing to do is worship and pray to the one Jesus prayed to. If Jesus told you that he had a God, would you honestly take Jesus as God? The logical answer is no, but Christians throw all logic out when it comes to the Bible. JESUS's Father is GOD. He's the one Christians should worship.

Matthew 26:36-44

36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.

So are you going to worship the one Jesus prayed to? Or are you going to worship Jesus? Logically you worship the one Jesus prayed to. just say you were alive at Jesus’ time and you were with him, and you knew he prayed to God and so on, would you honestly believe he is God? Off course not! It gets worse as Jesus himself claims he has a God:

John 20:16-18 :

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

if a man came to you and told you he has a God, would you honestly believe that man is God? No, you would not. Logic tells you if a man has a God then that man is not God, however Christians through logic at the window it seems, Christians want to worship Jesus, not the one Jesus worshiped. Christians want Jesus to be their God; they do not want Jesus’ God to be their God. Most Saints want to worship Jesus , not GOD ? So Jesus prays and has a God .

God comes out of a woman? God is a helpless baby?

The very fact that Jesus was given birth, and came out as little helpless small baby is enough to refute the claim that Jesus is God. It is utter blasphemy to claim that God came out of a women like all people, it is utter blasphemy to claim God came out crying and screaming and being helpless and weak. Such nonsense is insulting to God; this itself is enough to prove Jesus is not God. How can you claim that God came out of a woman? How can you insult God in such a manner . So you are saying God used to be like this child at one time? Are you actually going to say this is how God was once? a baby ; How can you logically claim that God was like this helpless baby at once? So as we clearly saw, Jesus cannot be God .JESUS's GOD is GOD
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MessageSujet: Re: JESUS is not GOD ♟if you believe He is you'll rot in hell?    Aujourd'hui à 3:48

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